To all invovled in Jets and there "SPECIAL WAIVER" requirements.
The precedent has been set that waivers can be revoked in some instances by the AMA. The following thread of FT/Santos is the public records gathered of the first case in which a person has had a waiver revoked.

FT/Santos
my side (post # 25)

I worked for frank as we all know I was fired because his buddy needed a job desperately. He was Always crying to Frank about the mortgage he has on his $100.000 boat that he can't sell and how he has no job. always hanging around the shop doing lunch I guess inching his way in. I believe we all know John Christenson the ex SIMJET liar I mean dealer yes Franks new lap dog.

The issue with the truck is as follows Frank and Myself had an agreement prior to me starting as an employee. One of which was bonus related. The bonus was to be used for "MY" truck not a company Truck and the balance was paid by me and I have the receipts to prove it

I just sold my house to follow Frank up to Lakeland after he asked me to move along with the business largely but not entirely because of all the $$$ he made at top gun. Yes folks he made plenty of money especially after the airports only request was for a new gator buggy for the use of the taxiway. Telling the city that all the people flying and visiting would equal to alot of $$$ spent in there city, hotels, food, etc,etc, charging folks for parking pitpass and tents. Also because he lost the POLO field in W. PALM BEACH. Then he lays the bad news on me telling me I am canned!!! he then proceeded to offer me a low ball price on "MY" truck and that it would behoove me to sell it to him at that price. I was livid because here he tells me he can't afford to keep me because he lost not one but two accounts that he made molds for. And turns around in my face handing John my paycheck and then trying to screw me out of my truck.but I got out of there before it got ugly. I said that I would never sell it to him regardless of how desperate he thought I was.

He said (son you don't want to get on my bad side I can make your life hell). I said whatever and walked out. Well since then he has used his popularity and influence to discredit me by falsely accusing me of stealing stuff from him because he knew people would eat it up. Having his lap dog John Christenson call my apt. with threats ETC,ETC, None of this was true which is why I still have the truck and no charges against me were ever filed in W.palm beach or lakeland it's not hard to find me especially if you have my new address.

And since dragging my name through the mud wasn't enough he calls the AMA and deny's ever signing me off on my waiver just before lake wales quite coincidental don't you think which is why I am the first and only guy in the history of waivers to get it revoked.

I'm sure that by giving frank all the rope he needs he will eventually hang himself.

These facts run much deeper but these are the basic facts(not enough space on the server for the complete version)

thanks for hearing me out
Santos Trabal

FT/Santos
Santos,

Thank you for the kind words.

I will just sit here at idle until this case is over and your theft has been proven. Then you buddy EASYTIGER and you can sit down and eat his collection of shoes.

A couple of things though.

Me being Frank's lapdog? Frank and I have been close friends for over three years, going out to dinner together with our wives about once or twice a week, going on vacations together etc. etc. I absolutely do not need to "inch" my way in there as you put it.

Also, I did not take your job away from you. You where terminated as a model builder because your work sucked big time. Your craftsmanship was at best a 4 on a scale from 1 to 10. I do not build models for Frank. In fact, the $10 an hour you made would not even make me wan't to get up in the morning. (You where highly overpaid btw.)

You on the other hand have absolutely no friends here in Florida. You met several modelers at FTE who could be potential flying buddies, but no one had any desire to hang out with you after 5 minuter in the same room.

edited by ghost rider (Edited by Jchris) Oh great, -A moderator who edits your post becaus he has his own wrong opinion about the case. Ben, maybe you should back out of this one....and let an unpartial moderator take over

Regarding your waiver, then Frank told you on several occasions that you did not fly well enough to have him sign a waiver. He told you to go practice and to buy a plane that would teach you fast flying skills. However, you crashed the plane again and again and never got signed up. So forging a signature just like you did when you forged the signature on the title was the only solution? How about thinking about the other modelers that are going to be around when you fly you jet as unsafe as your are. Is their safety not important to you?
With not so kind regards

John Christensen

FT/Santos
For those who are interested, here is the FTE side of this Santos story. Santos Trabal was hired to do general work at FTE, which included model building. WE did Not hold it against him that he mis-represented himself and in fact could not build any model that wasn't fully composite. He had never built a wooden built-up structure for example. AS time went on, he"miss-shipped" many times, sending out much more product than was called for on an invoice. It cost FTE several thousand dollars in the first 3 months. Santos was sharing a car with his wife and she dropped him off to work every morning about an hour or so before he really had to be here. I said that I would be happy to buy a vehicle that he could use and he could repay FTE by applying a "raise" he was due for. IF he didn't stay for the full 3 years we calculated the truck to be worth, he could either pay the balance or return it and FTE would give thim the cash value of his raise. We paid just under $10,000 for the vehicle, Santos used it for 3 or 4 months and was dismissed. He asked to use the truck until he moved. By the way, we Strongly Suggested that he not sell his house until the FTE move was definite but he chose to do so anyway. As it turns out, he made sesveral thousand dollars profit and moved colse to his family in Tampa. Anyway, we agreed to allow the use of the truck until the end of August. At that time I would give him severance pay and get the truck back. The truck was titled to BOTH of us and registered to Santos for Insurance purposes. At the end of August, he called and informed me that he was "Keeoping" the truck and would not be returning it. Because the title was in both our names, he was able to immediately transfer title to this wife's name. End of story and that is why he is not in jail , YET! As far as John Christensen, he was at FTE putting in a Networking Computer System, not replacing Santos! And yes, we did go on to hire John, but not in the capacity Santos was supposed to be working in. John is an experienced business manager, not a warehouse person. He is still with us, in that position, and we are still looking for someone to fill the vacated position left by Santos. Santos was let go because he was inept and he misrepresented what he could do for us, period. We caught him in several lies, serious ones. He even put a post about how fantastic his F-16 flew when it never had left the ground, it was sitting on a table in MY workshop and STILL HAS NOT FLown. It is built so poorly and has such a terrible warp, it can not fly properly anyway.! WE never had intentions of exposing him until he left and took the truck, inventory, several tools and electronic equipment with him. As far as the "Forged" Turbine Waiver, why not ask Santos who the "Other" AMA CD is that signed him off? I bet he can't even give you his name. And, if he can, he certainly has NEVER met the man! And how could I personally sign him off when the only 3 times I saw him fly, he crashed! One of the airplanes was mine! I certainly would not jeopardize my name, and my business, with a public display of liable, if this were not proveable! I have signed, notorized afadavits now from everyone who knew the original agreement, including the folks at the automobile agency that sold me the truck! That's my side of the story. Believe what you want but remember to ask yourself why I would waste such valuable time fabricating a story like this if it simply weren't true. Oh, by the way, Santos called a friend of his in Miami the day he stole the truck and the "friend" advised him to return it. Santos told him that since he had the title, he could get away with keeping it! I have a notorized statment from that person as well. One last thing, WHO do you know that would give a $10,000 dollar bonus to ANY Employee after only 3 months! Especially one that was incompetant. Please, just use your head out there! Thanks, Frank

FT/Santos
Something else for the record. The Bogus Turbine waiver was found while cleaning out the desk that Santos used. along with a lot of personal stuff he must have forgotten about. The turbine waver appears to have been a copy of someone else's with a copy of a different signature "copied" over it! The "other" waiver was from a person that the signatures do not even match. These are facts, not opinions. And for those who just want to believe that this is a case of a big fish picking on a small fish, get real! The guy cannot fly a fast airplane safely, he knows it, we know it and others know it. He joined a new club, has crashed his only airplane already! Giving this guy a waiver is like putting Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank. That's it for me on this matter. If anyone wants to talk in private, emaill me at my business address. It's right here. I don't think there is any reason for me to add anything else.
Thanks, FT

A PM from FT to EZtiger........
Here's a quote from the PM you sent me the other day, where you claim to know nothing at all about Santos' wavier being revoked:
"As far as AMA, it is freaking moronic to think that ANYBODY, me, Bob Violett, I don't care who, would be able to coerce AMA to do anything of this sort. I now know exactly why Santos had his waiver overturned. Maybe it is because he is an unsafe pilot, always crashing and tells stories out of school.Maybe he misrepresented himself. Maybe its something worse. In other words, while he may be a chum of yours personally, the guy is a freeking liar and a thief. On top of that he is a Muslim who is supposed to be honest! And, he is very sympathetic to the Muslims that were responsible for Sept. 11. Yeah, he's a terrific human being!
Thanks for listening, Frank Tiano"

And NOW, you say you DO know something about it...you were clearing out a desk and found his wavier. And called AMA.
You're BUSTED.

FT/Santos
Santos (post # 51)

Easy Tiger,
Nope,I'm not busted. At the time I wrote you a private email I did not know what the AMA did. In fact, I still do not know! I only know what I have read on this site. Even though I know the reasons for the investigation, I did not know the outcome. That's what I was speaking of. And, it was not up to ME to post the reasons why. I tried to show a little class and reserve in the matter! So, I'm not "busted" just better informed. The facts are the facts. Forgery is forgery. Lieing is lieing. Stealing is stealing. Isn't it? I still have hope that you are not so stupid to believe that "anybody" could call our AMA and have anything done without a month of investigation, 17 meetings and a general Executive Council Meeting. But, you are desperately trying to prove otherwise aren't you? That's it, I'm oughta here.

FT/Santos
Private messages from John Christenson:
"A day in you life
EASYTIGER,

I just spent some time reading through some of your 1900 posts. Almost every post you are in ends with people getting pissed at you. 1900 posts filled with piss and vinegar. Several times even the moderators have asked you to shut up... Go figure

Let be guess what your life is like: You are a probably a fat **** who wants so bad to be a big shot in modeling, but unfortunately your building and flying skills does not enable you to get there. Instead you found this perfect place when you can sit with you big overweight corpus behind a PC all day and pretend to be an expert on everything. You have posts in EVERY possible group here on RCU and you know everything about everything from turbines to indoor rubber band thingies.

You are probably also a looser at work and a looser in you private life.

I have talked to several people at the jet meet this weekend and it is funny how everyone mentioned you as the number one BS asshole on RCU when we where talking about the online scumbags.

Well, if I am right about my classification about you I'm sure you will not let me know, but let me tell you that you have all the tell tales of being exactly that person judging from what you post.

Very shortly, and as soon as Frank Tiano has the permission from all the guys who signed the statements about Santos, this thing about his stealing is going to be made public with all the facts. I really can not wait for the day when this happens. It will make you look exactly like the looser that you are.


Respectfully

John Christensen"

And from Frank Tiano:
"So, you want me to send you copies of the signed papers concerning the man's theft? You are kidding right? Like you are so freaking trustworthy that I would show you documents of an upcoming felony court case with the hope that you wouldn't forward them to the defendant. Right! You called me on the phone a while back to hear the story, acted like you were just a curious bystander, trying to advise Santos the proper thing to do. You are a liar as well. As far as I am concerned, you are a devious, trouble making, instigator. I don't know you personally but after some investigation I am told that you are a fat creep that doesn't even fly jet models, lurking on sites like this just to make trouble. I despise dishonest people and those with an agenda against the truth and have no use for people like you in my life. Please don't respond to me any more."

Nice people.

FT PM to EZTigr
1. I never talked to FT on the phone about this. That's a lie.
2. Here is the PM he sent me the other day in it's entirety, where he offered to send me "notarized documents", which I declined, until Santos asked me to ask for the copies yesterday.


"Sqntos Crap
Easy Tiger,

Hi, Frank Tiano here. Just want to let you know a thing or two. IF you are really an upstanding guy, I think that you might do us both a favor and go back on RCU, AFTER reading this, and say that you have had a change of heart.l
First of all, It does me no good to be trashing anyone on this site. Second, I do not need any publicity. Regardless if you like me or hate me, the name of my company is very well known and I would not deliberately seek out bad publicity!

Last, IF you give me a fax number, I will fax you the notarized, sworn statements of all who know exactly what Santos did to our company. This is guys like Carlos from RTI who is a good friend of Santos, the sales guy from Ford and other people who know the facts about this. (These people do not want to have their names on the Internet, so whatever I tell you has to be between you and I) The fact is this, and we have proof, we Registered and Titled a company vehicle in both my and Santos' name so he would have transportation to and from work. Reason was so that if there was an accident, it didn't hurt our company insurance. When we let him go, he asked to use the truck till end of month to move some stuff. We agreed. He called on the last day and said since the Title was in hi name as well as mine, he was KEEPING the truck. He eventually put it in his wifes name to avoid me getting it back. He also took many new tools, chargers and assorted shop stuff. That is the truth. If you care to see the statements, I'll be more than happy to fax them. If you do not care to see the statement, then that tells me something else. As far as AMA, it is freaking moronic to think that ANYBODY, me, Bob Violett, I don't care who, would be able to coerce AMA to do anything of this sort. I now know exactly why Santos had his waiver overturned. Maybe it is because he is an unsafe pilot, always crashing and tells stories out of school.Maybe he misrepresented himself. Maybe its something worse. In other words, while he may be a chum of yours personally, the guy is a freeking liar and a thief. On top of that he is a Muslim who is supposed to be honest! And, he is very sympathetic to the Muslims that were responsible for Sept. 11. Yeah, he's a terrific human being!
Thanks for listening, Frank Tiano"

This thread was almost closed off earlier, but after much deliberation it was allowed to stand mainly for one reason : because at that time the only posts that had been seen were those that accused Santos of theft, forgery etc., and right at the moment when we decided we should "can" the thread, Santos posted his side of the story. While the thread had already gone beyond what we considered appropriate for an R/C site, it was considered important that we should not delete the thread at a point which would have seemed like we were allowing the FTE allegations to stand, but censoring Santo's attempt to clear his name. Consequently, after editing out some of the language etc., the thread was allowed to remain active for a bit longer just so that both sides would be heard, rather than only one.

Now that we have heard both sides though, and the posts are getting rather personal, I believe it is time to close the thread.

In closing, I would like to remind everyone that here in the US we assume everyone to be innocent until proven guilty, and that any opinions about alleged deeds by any of the people discussed in this thread are just that - opinions. Judging any of these people just by what you read here would not be a wise course of action IMO.

Now, let's all get back to discussing jets.

Regards,
Gordon

My account @ RCU has been removed. Providing such information outside of their domain I guess results in lost revenue............

Nice copy job, cant you get anything origional?

What is your point?

I believe the intent was to make sure everyone got to see it rather then it being deleted else where.
And for doing so.... it seems to have gotten him banned/account deleted???
For material that was already on an open forum???
Very interesting!
Or should I say typical :rolleyes:

Doug

Originally posted by southerngent
I believe the intent was to make sure everyone got to see it rather then it being deleted else where.
And for doing so.... it seems to have gotten him banned/account deleted???
For material that was already on an open forum???
Very interesting!
Or should I say typical :rolleyes:

Doug
re: RCU selective censorship
The goose-stepping and swastika wielding just doesn't make sense--Are people that attracted to being told what to hear, say, think, believe? There's an obvious agenda at RCU, I've always seen it, which is for Marc Vigod to accrue as much money and ego gratification at the expense of the "cattle" he can lure in as he can...but for all those modelers to be drawn to that kind of control is simply sickening to me. I thought the most of "us" were way above that...

I usually keep my opinions of RCU to myself, as I have some really good friends who moderate there, but I get the impression that there are victims amongst the moderators there as well...

Well, there I went! Said too much awready...

I needed a legitimate open forum site to reference to concerning information regarding the "first" AMA turbine revoking matter in which some details arose. Seems out of a employer/employee relationship gone bad.

The info was authored and posted on a public internet site that soon will be deleted when banner sales are threatend.

Here is the final say as too how an open forum discussion transpires elswhere on the Net. I'snt this nice, god has spoken. ThanX RCflying for being there for us. As a member for 10 months on both sites the censorship has become to much for me sit quietly.....


==============================================

I think all parties have appropriately said their peace, made their statements and provided all necessary information regarding this. Keep in mind this should be a private matter between all parties involved but we felt, as Gordon said, that everyone should have a chance to say their peace.

I've read all 80+ posts in this thread and have drawn my own limited conclusions as each of you will as well after hearing both sides. If this does in fact go to court there will be plenty of paperwork, affadavits, witnesses & all other pertinent evidence related to this case which will allow a judge or jury to render a decision. At that point I will gladly open this thread up to allow the victor to post the verdict if they so choose.


__________________
Marc
RCU Site Webmaster, Administrator & Proprieter

Being a Mod at RCU, I can tell you that thread will not be deleted. Matter of fact it ran a course, and was left intact(with exception to vulgarity) so both parties could have a chance to represent themselves. That's the fair thing to do, at least where I come from.

I'm not sure what role c/f plays in the scenario, nor does it matter, other then the fact that for some reason he made a choice to carry something on that only would get worse. If you read the posts in entirety there's obviously no other recourse then to close it. I say CLOSE it.

I'm curious as to the purpose of carrying on something here, that was basically over and done at RCU. It served no purpose to continue the bantering going on.

What purpose does it serve? If there is one legitimate goal what would it be? To let 2 men continue to defend thier name in the public eye? If so what does that accomplish?

I don't have any interest in thier issues, nor do I want to. I think it's really tragic to see 2 guys, obviously seriously affected by comments and opinions stated in the thread. It's really bad you guys.

Then to bring RCU into it,..and anyone else....why make mud out of people? RCU did nothing but allow it to run it's course until it was extremely obvious it was going down down down...cool, now it's here....

I hope it helps someone...the thread will be at RCU, in a closed status, and I also hope that helps some to see that RCU is not the fault here.

Post what you will, most of us did see how it unfolded though, and really want to move on.

To the Moderator of this forum....please read this thread in it's entirety, and you decide if it merits further comments...if you choose to leave it open, so be it, you have the forum...I would think seriously though before letting it continue. Leaving it up in a closed status for reference might be beneficial as RCU has done, but leaving it open is only going to leave it open for further controversy. That's not what this site is about, is it? I'd like to think not. You all decide. These guys really don't need thier name smeared like this, I know if I was either one of them, I sure would want a close, at least in the publics view.

To the Moderator of this forum....please read this thread in it's entirety, and you decide if it merits further comments...if you choose to leave it open, so be it, you have the forum...I would think seriously though before letting it continue. Leaving it up in a closed status for reference might be beneficial as RCU has done, but leaving it open is only going to leave it open for further controversy. That's not what this site is about, is it?

While I can appreciate what your saying, and from contact with the thread starter...... This Thread was brought here because he felt that the thread at RCU was about to be deleted. I think that the thread starter was more concerned with the WAIVER issue then the mudslinging/personal attacks that insued in the thread at RCU. And yes I did read the thread there in its entirety.
Even tho RCU did not delete the post...... past history has shown that this time is an exception. With that said, I can see the validity of the thread starters intention.
Here at RCFlying.net..... we asked that this thread be handled carefully with respect to the concerned parties..... but more so that it be led in the direction of the reasons Waiver's can be revoked..... How they are revoked...... and finally if politics can be used to have a waiver revoked.

If these few guidelines are followed I can see no reason to close it.

Doug

Hi Doug...points well taken, thanks. That was the intent there as well, and definately would have stayed open if it seemed there was something condusive to the issue. I can tell you that none of it was taken even remotely light, and there was alot of thought, and work that went in it before it was closed.

The only reason I even commented as I did, is there's obviously 2 people that are having some troubles, and to see it happen once is one thing, and it did stand a chance, but to see it over and over, as it seemed it was getting very personal. That's what wasn't a good thing. So...enough from me...there are some good people at RCU, and there's alot of thought and debate that goes into our work there, as well as here I'm sure, with that said, thank you again, and good luck with the thread.

The 3 people involved in this event of the first turbine waiver removal process, chose to air their personal grievances on a public internet site, it sheds light as to how the first waiver revocation process by the AMA occured.

What you don't realize is all 3 of these idividuals could have, and were instructed to do so at anytime, delete these posts and furthermore if/when it is opened up again I assume they could also delete them. However here they cannot. They chose poor judgement in airing on a public forum so now we shall have a spot on the internet that it can historically be refferenced to. My original intent is how the AMA conducts business on matters like this.

IMHO if this guy was still an employee of FTE, he would still be flying in front of crowds with a valid waiver. FTE would not have turned him in.........

And it is still my opinion that when pressure comes down that threaten banner sales, because we know the clout FTE has in the industry, Marc will fold and remove it..